Enlarging the Scope part 2: Dig Into Complexity
Interview with Roshi Bernie Glassman, Conducted in Montague, Massachusetts, USA in June 2016
Transcribed by Scott Harris
Preface: Bernie requested to bring to view his questions,Â intentions and themes that were shapedÂ by twenty yearsÂ ofÂ co-leading Bearing Witness retreats in Poland, Rwanda and the Black Hills.Â Â The narrative of events that led to the first retreat is described inÂ the article “Bernieâ€™s Training: Bearing Witness.”
Here Roshi Bernie and Rami Efal bring the Rwanda and Native American retreats into the discussion of Bearing Witness.Â Â Part 1 of this interview is available here.Â Â
Rami: I heard you say once that you have a vision of what Bearing Witness retreats are and that while both the Zen Peacemakers Bearing Witness retreats in Rwanda Â 2014 and in theÂ Black Hills 2015 were successful in their own way, they both differed from that vision.Â Can you say more about that?
Bernie: In Rwanda, we had mostly two sides, the Hutu and the Tutsis. We had some Europeans of course, but it was all about Rwanda. No Congo, no othersâ€¦ We did have this guyâ€”you heard about the guy that was a paramilitary guy that came to a retreat. Twenty years before, when the genocide in Rwanda was happening, he was sent with a battalion (I think it was 600 Belgian) to rescue the local Rwandans that were surrounded in a coliseum by militia. He was sent with orders to stop what was going on. He commandedÂ armedÂ soldiers, they could have stopped what was happening. When their planes landed, he got a message from Belgium headquarters saying, â€śForget it. Rescue whatever Europeans you can. Go there, get them out, and leave.â€ť And thatâ€™s what he did. For the twenty years he hadnâ€™t told that story to anyone. Not to his wifeâ€”his marriage was on the verge of breaking up. It was killing him. At our retreat, 20 year later, he broke that story. Now thatâ€™s a bearing witness kind of thing.Â I tried to get more people like that. We couldnâ€™t. So if I had any remorse, it was that I wasnâ€™t able to get enough different kinds. It was just a few people.
We had a woman whoâ€™s arm was chopped off, and we had the guy who cut her arm off there. But it wasnâ€™t broad enough for me. I wantedâ€”because I know the Europeans have a heavy burden in what happened there, and we did not have enough Europeans to spell that out.
You could focus on what the Hutu Â did to the Tutsis or vice-versa, but thereâ€™s that whole history of how this goes on. Thatâ€™s what I was trying to bring out. Well itâ€™s not so simple, you know. You start looking at who youâ€™re blaming. Itâ€™s like in Israel, you dig down and say oh, this is what it looked like in there. And these people were in charge, and these people were killed in their villages. And you dig a little deeper, and you know.
Part of my thing is wanting to show that things are not so simple as you think. And then the Jews wind up talking about how bad ‘these people’ are. Come on man, go back a little. Why did that happen? What went on?Â They were all caught up in what the thing is, which was enough for them. ForÂ me, it was never enoughâ€”just to see the one-sided view, or the two-sided view . . .
Rami: And that goes back to that point that you were trying to make about Auschwitzâ€”that itâ€™s not just about Jews, or just about Gypsies. So Iâ€™m really hearing from you that thereâ€™s a sense of expanding the scope. Thereâ€™s something very vast, very wide around it.
Rami: And I heard you say about that Belgian trooper, you said that he told the story after twenty years, for the first time. And you said, â€śthatâ€™s the kind of bearing witness.â€ť Can you say more? What do you mean by that? â€śThatâ€™s the kind of bearing witness.â€ť
Bernie: Well, first of all, he kept that inside himâ€”what the Belgian government did. The Belgian government told him, â€śYou canâ€™t do that.â€ť The Belgian government set up this goddamned war between these people. But it wasnâ€™t all Belgian, it was Dutch, the French had huge play. If you go far back the Hutus and Tutsis were one knot. But the Europeans created this hatred among them.
So we allowed something to come out. I met him a year later at Frankâ€™s place. He came to Frankâ€™s. And he told me, he tells his wife the story after twenty years. He couldnâ€™t tell anybody. The same kind of thing we heard about the Holocaust. People couldnâ€™t tell what went on. They couldnâ€™t tell. Then twenty years later he tells the story. And now heâ€™s free to tell his wife. His whole life changed.
So itâ€™s a case of what happensâ€”in all of these cases where people are allowed to tell, to bear witness toÂ what went on, and it changes their surroundings. It did not happen years ago. In the past, they didnâ€™t do bearing witness. They just did blaming, or grief. They didnâ€™t go through a bearing witness kind of . . . not just the peopleâ€”the country. In the country there was no bearing witness. . . .
That was myÂ feeling – to start asking where can I create these venues where you bring more than one voice? How many voices can you bring? Because all of these things are not one voice. OrÂ two voices, more and more, we canâ€™t comprehend, as it gets too big. But thatâ€™s what I was trying to do, you know. We keep doing that, and not that many people could understand where I was coming from.
But it doesnâ€™t matter. Itâ€™s a bearing witness, whatever you do is a big enough story that itâ€™s really . . . It was a big enough step away from just bearing witness to myself, like in Shikantaza [a form of Zen Meditation], it opened up, and opened up. Iâ€™ve always felt that you can go and go and go.
So people now, they call something a Bearing Witness Retreatâ€”I donâ€™t know if I would call it that. They call it, because thatâ€™s the genre. But they donâ€™t even think the way I think about what it means. It doesnâ€™t matter. They think about it the way they think about it, and itâ€™s enough.Â But to leap from doing something as a Sesshin on your own in your own zendo to something that involves another personâ€”thatâ€™s a big leap, to try to make it bigger, and bigger.
Rami:Â What is the essence of what Zen Peacemakers, and what you are trying to do inÂ Bearing Witness retreats? how is that different from aÂ Plunge? I was recently asked about the ZPO members-led plunge inÂ Cheyenne River Reservation, ifÂ what we did in thereÂ was aÂ Bearing Witness Retreat. We have these different containers and I find it important to clarify what each means – so my opinion is that it was fulfilling a different container,Â it was a terrific example of a ‘Plunge’ —Â enteringÂ a new situation with not knowing, with no agenda — hopefully we will see more of these plunges. I wonder if what you mean in a ‘Bearing Witness Retreat’ is that is itâ€™s beyond going to a place and being with it. Because thatâ€™s a lot of what I hear people say. â€śLetâ€™s go to the river toÂ Bear Witness.â€ť What I heard from you now is that in these retreats we are proactivelyÂ expandingÂ our view of how big is theÂ narrative. Thereâ€™s no end to the complexity of those things. And how can we involve more and more aspects, and hear more voices and stories that illustrate that complexity?
Bernie: Yeah, thatâ€™s my feeling.
This interview with Roshi Bernie Glassman was conducted in Montague, Massachusetts, USA in June 2016 by Rami Efal, executive director of Zen Peacemakers International. It was transcribed by Scott Harris. Photographs from Rwanda byÂ Aleksandra Kwiatkowska, song ‘In the Center’, inÂ Rwanda video (above) by Morley. Photographs from the Black Hills by Peter Cunningham