An interview with Zen Peacemaker Roshi, Barbara Salaam Wegmüller Roshi (Bern) and Cornelius von Collande Roshi (Würzburg), about the upcoming Auschwitz Retreat in November 2024 against the backdrop of the current war in the Middle East.

The interview was held in May 2024, therefore only the war in Gaza and not in Lebanon is addressed here.

The interview was conducted by
Michael Hock,ZenPeacemaker practitioner since 2022 (Wellen-Sangha and Raben Sangha) and M.A. phil Philosophy / Psychology.

The interview appeared in a shorter form in the magazine “Buddhismus aktuell” 4/24

 

Dear Barbara, dear Cornelius, about the most important event of the Zen Peacemakers,
the annual Auschwitz Retreat, has already been written and spoken a lot. I would like to start this conversation not in retrospect, but in the here and now.
Hence my first question to you: What exactly does sitting zazen on the selection ramp, reciting the countless names of the children, women and men murdered in the Birkenau concentration camp mean to you…today and here in Switzerland and Germany for you?

Barbara: For me today, it means looking deeper and deeper, feeling what is happening, when people devalue each other, deny each other the right to life, react with hatred and
separation … what they are then capable of. And that happens always and everywhere according to similar patterns.

So you can say, without doubting the historically unique dimension of Auschwitz,
the basic pattern behind this inhumanity is nevertheless constantly present in this world?

Barbara: Yes, it’s there all the time and the only answer I have so far after all these years sitting there is simple: NEVER AGAIN – FOR EVERYONE!

What does it mean for you in 2024, Cornelius?

Cornelius: During the Auschwitz Retreat, I experience myself as part of a movement that tries again and again to adopt an attitude of INTIMATE UNDERSTANDING and then to do what needs to be done from this attitude – whithout making a “THING” out of it. In somewhat technical terms, this is “process-oriented”, i.e. always oriented towards the here and now and not towards a rigid goal. It is therefore about ACTION based on the greatest possible openness and connectedness. And that again and again, in large and in small.

Cornelius (2nd from right) in conversation on the concentration camp site

 

I made a kind of game out of it with my wife Blandina, in which we – when we were catching each other “complaining” about others – we kept saying: “Just like us”. So we were in a wonderful place on La Palma and suddenly a bus full of tourists stopped there and “spoiled” our enjoyment. We looked at each other and said with a laugh: “Just like us”.

Bernie Glassman Roshi, the founder of the Zen Peacemaker Order and your teacher, together with Jishu Holmes, Eve Marko and Andrezej Krajewski, founded the Auschwitz Retreat in 1996. In his book “Bearing Witness – Buddhism as a committed life”, he writes about his vision of the retreat in a place that has become a symbol for the eradication of all diversity: “I was certain that such an encounter would have a healing effect. What form it would take, was not clear to me.” … How did you both experience your first Auschwitz Retreat? What impressed you the most?

Cornelius: That was for me in 2011. I had my ideas about a place of horror, but what I found was a “holy” place. A place where sadness and joy, despair and hope, hate and love, weeping and laughter are interwoven with each other. A place that constantly questions your existence, a place that does not let you go back to business as usual. A place that creates peace.

Barbara: For me, that was in 1999 and I knew a lot about the history of Auschwitz, because in our family, even when I was a child, there was a lot of talk about it. My parents were also deeply moved by it and I saw a picture in a newspaper at a very early age, around seven years old, and I saw how my mom was deeply shaken by it. I asked her what it was and she told me: “This mom and the kids are being sent to their deaths.” And at that moment I somehow knew that the world was not a safe place. That was something shattering for me and I saw this picture in Auschwitz every year and I actually broke down inside again and again… and in my first Auschwitz Retreat I cried a lot. It made me so sad what I saw there, that something like that is possible for people. I was totally shocked.

Barbara leads the ceremony in the children’s barrack

And I also believe that it is a part of healing to turn towards the suffering. And really feel and experience it and see it more and more clearly as a result. This CLEAR SEEING is an important part of healing, which is not easy, but which makes us MORE WHOLE, because we humans are part of such a story.

So “seeing clearly” in the sense that I see clearly what people can do to other people?

Barbara: Exactly. And then, of course, over the years, I’ve also come to see my own perpetrator part. Even if I only eliminate the aphids on my roses, that’s already a form of selection. This increasingly subtle way of seeing how we separate … and then make decisions – on a large and small scale. And to see this more and more clearly WITHIN also in encounters with people, where I then learn – I have learned this above all in street retreats – what I think to myself, for example, before I beg someone.
This is also the case in Auschwitz when we listen to the different voices, the children and grandchildren of perpetrators, children and grandchildren of people who died there in a genocide. That brings us much closer to this general suffering and that makes us more compassionate for the whole.

Did and does this encounter have a healing effect on you – in what sense of healing? – and still does today?

Barbara: I think it is very important for healing that we stay there for a week. Because just a short visit, where you encounter this horror and then leave immediately is certainly very different to being there with a group of completely different people over a longer period of time and repeatedly exchanging each other over several days, reading the names of the victims together, freezing or sweating together in the square, …that is simply a very special experience.

Cornelius: There are organizations in Israel and Palestine in which Israelis and Palestinians sit down together to mourn their children killed by the other side. So they recognize that they have something in common that is more important than their differences.
In this sense, in Auschwitz we WITNESS TOGETHER the infinite suffering that people do to people. We come to Auschwitz with people from the most diverse backgrounds: Jews, Christians, Muslims, Israelis, Palestinians, descendants of victims, descendants of perpetrators, etc. I experience there time and again that people who at the beginning even can not bear the language of the other, are in each other’s arms at the end of the retreat. That is real peace work!

We live in a time when wars and the associated killing of countless innocent children, women and men happen every day. One of these wars has been in the Middle East since October 2023 between the Israeli government and its military and the Palestinian terrorist organization Hamas – with thousands of civilian victims on both sides.
Does this somehow influence your preparation for and expectations of the upcoming Auschwitz Retreat from November 17-23? Will there be any changes compared to previous years?

Cornelius: The immense suffering that people in the Middle East are currently experiencing is of course influencing the whole retreat. And that’s why this year’s retreat will be more important than ever. However, we are not trying to decide on changes in advance, but will, as in all years, carefully accompany the retreat and do everything necessary when the time comes.

Barbara: Everything is certainly heavier in my heart again, I am also very connected to the Palestinians. We, i.e. the Swiss Peacemaker Community, have also had invited Palestinian friends to the retreat in Auschwitz for several years… and this has sometimes led to turbulence with other participants – one rabbi, for example, said that it was not at all acceptable for Palestinians to be at this place and I am therefore prepared for some heated discussions.

Barbara with peace activist Sami Awad, founder of the Holy Land Trust organization (West- Bank), her husband Roland, Ovido Waldemar psychiatrist from Brazil, in Bethlehem

The pain is immense. I have been running a Gaza Council on the Peacemaker homepage for some time now. because I have said from the beginning of this war: “We cannot always only do a testimony retreat when the drama is already over – it is going on now, at this moment and we have to bear witness now!” And that will certainly be a topic at the next Auschwitz Retreat. And it has to be, because the stories are interwoven … even if each individual story has its own dramatic consequences, what is happening right now is also a consequence of the Israeli state in conjunction with the current Israeli government. With this far-right government I saw this coming, it was to be expected that it would escalate. And what is happening now is of course terrible, and I find it very distressing and sad.

Will Palestinians also be coming to this retreat?

Barbara: We want to try to make it possible to have someone from the West Bank at the retreat again this year. Whether we will succeed is of course not certain. But it would be very important. But I believe that it will take a very long time to heal what has been happening there since October. – several generations.

Here in Germany, we also live in a society that seems to be becoming increasingly divided and also noticeably radicalized. Selfishness, intolerance and even violence against people with different values are unfortunately almost the order of the day here.
Bernie Glassman once formulated the first principle of the Zen Peacemakers, the “not knowing”. Not to take my supposed “knowledge” as absolute and to reject all other beliefs as “false” and to fight against them …Is that even possible in view of the suffering in the Middle East?

Cornelius: I don’t understand “not knowing” in the sense of the Zen Peacemakers to mean “no idea”. Rather, for me it means the GREATEST POSSIBLE OPENNESS on the basis of reflected knowledge. It makes a difference whether a child knows nothing, or an adult quietly puts all their knowledge aside for a moment and first consciously let the situation take effect. In this sense, “not knowing” enables an appropriate response (and not a mere reaction!) to the circumstances. An answer that can be very clear precisely because of the attitude of not knowing can be very clear. A clear “yes”, a clear “no”. Clear boundaries and a clear opening.

Barbara: For me, it’s also important to open up the space as much as possible and to perceive and look at all sides. What it certainly shouldn’t be is that it is a spiritual bypass. That’s why we also have “bearing witness” alongside it – it needs voices and opinions and also to speak out clear messages. Then it is helpful, I think. If it doesn’t take us into an empty space where we then remain silent. That can’t be the goal. That is also a danger, because sometimes “not knowing” is also misunderstood.

In your opinion, how can we, in an information society and in the face of increasing “fake news”, how can we live this attitude of ‘not-knowing’, a fundamental self-critical questioning of firm convictions? Can we as peacemakers with our basic attitude perhaps even have an “educational” effect here?

Barbara: Wisdom is a very important aspect of Buddhism. And that includes for me also information from different sources, openness and genuine interest, to be informed from different sides … and of course not forgetting common sense. And always keeping in mind that these are are all just opinions, different points of view.

The other two principles, “Bearing Witness”, and that action that arises from not knowing and bearing witness are in view of the current situations of war and crisis also constantly under “critical evaluation”. In word and deed taking sides with innocent victims is increasingly being publicly discredited. In the blink of an eye, a critical statement or participation in an event “anti-Semite” or ‘naive peace apostle“.

Barbara: I’ve known for years that if you ask how the Palestinians are doing … just by thinking about what happens behind the walls there … you very often get the answer that it’s anti-Semitic. I have experienced that myself again and again. On the other hand, it is precisely what I learned in Auschwitz that the silent majority was a large part of the crime. And so I promised myself that I would speak out despite the accusations. Of course it is very difficult.
I also follow the discussions at the UN and there is this incredible arrogance, that comes from the representatives of the Israeli government and always this accusation of anti-Semitism … And I have to say, I find it extremely difficult to deal with this and also extremely difficult to see how many governments – including our Swiss government – how it is handled with restraint and fear and how it is kept silent out of fear of this accusation. I think it’s even more difficult for you Germans, but I would like to see much more of an opinion from our government and a commitment to humanitarian rights and international law. That the violation of this international law would be much clearer and should also have consequences – so that one should clearly say: “NOT LIKE THAT!”. Because the killing of so many children and civilians is unacceptable to me.

What do you see as the fundamental importance of these three principles of the ZenPeacemakers and – to take us back to the beginning of our conversation: what can the Auschwitz Retreat contribute to this in concrete terms?

Cornelius: In my opinion, it is important in the Middle East to distinguish the politics of a country, of a party from the individual people. In this sense, I take the liberty of clearly condemn politics and to bear witness to the suffering of people, regardless of their nationality. … So if Auschwitz – on the basis of the suffering that occurred there – is about recognizing and witnessing that our commonalities are more important than our differences, this can move us to true compassion and compassionate action with those who suffer.

Barbara: The Auschwitz Retreat is always something on a knife-edge. We have to look carefully that we are not appropriated – with a political abuse of the trauma of Auschwitz. It is really only helpful if you see it as a deep spiritual practice to ask the question “What are we doing to each other as human beings?” – and that we learn from it. But as soon as it says: “Never again – just for us!” … then it becomes dangerous. And you should always say that very clearly, I think that’s very important.
If we go back to October 7th, that was terrible. These acts of terror also involved a great deal of sexualized violence against women in particular – very bad, what was done to people there and yet you can’t just kill an entire civilian population, starve and injure an entire civilian population … And I think that’s very important, that we take a close look at the individual stories and recognize the suffering and have an opinion on it and express it. But that we are still there to reduce suffering everywhere! And, if possible, to bring more wisdom and more compassion to these unbelievably bad events. That is a lot of soul work and takes a lot of strength.

Can suffering be quantified? When a child is hit by a bomb fragment or starves to death, is that less dramatic than when a whole village or town is wiped out?

Barbara: I don’t think so. All suffering is simply suffering. And every family that is affected by it has to deal with this suffering in a certain way. May we be able to cultivate more wisdom and more compassion, especially with regard to the many dead who are there. We owe them something and for me that means serving life and supporting life. And also to speak out when we see that this is not happening.

Thank you both very much for the interview!

The interview was conducted by Michael Hock, ZenPeacemaker practitioner since 2022 (Wellen- Sangha and Raben Sangha) and M.A. phil Philosophy / Psychology.
The interview appeared in a shorter form in the magazine “Buddhismus aktuell” 4/24